ThinkerContemporary philosophy20th-century analytic and political philosophy

Norberto Bobbio

Norberto Bobbio
Also known as: Professor Norberto Bobbio

Norberto Bobbio was an Italian legal scholar and political theorist whose work decisively shaped 20th‑century philosophy of law and democratic thought. Trained as a jurist in Turin under fascism, he combined rigorous analytical methods with a deep concern for constitutionalism, human rights, and peace. Bobbio is best known for clarifying the conceptual structure of legal systems—how individual legal norms form coherent orders—and for distinguishing sharply between describing law as it is (legal positivism) and arguing for how it ought to be (moral and political philosophy). Yet he insisted that democracies can survive only if their legal orders internalize values such as liberty, equality, and rights. Writing accessibly for a broad readership, Bobbio bridged academic philosophy, jurisprudence, and public debate. His analyses of the tensions between liberalism and socialism, and his reflections on the “age of rights” and the “future of democracy,” influenced constitutional lawyers, political theorists, and activists across Europe and Latin America. While not primarily a systematic philosopher, he transformed philosophical discussions of normativity, the rule of law, and democratic legitimacy, making him one of the most important non‑philosopher contributors to postwar political and legal philosophy.

At a Glance

Quick Facts
Field
Thinker
Born
1909-10-18Turin, Kingdom of Italy
Died
2004-01-09Turin, Italy
Cause: Complications related to advanced age
Floruit
1940s–1990s
Period of greatest intellectual and public influence
Active In
Italy, Europe
Interests
Theory of lawRule of lawDemocracyLiberalism and socialismHuman rightsTheory of normsTheory of the StatePeace and disarmament
Central Thesis

Norberto Bobbio’s overarching thesis is that modern societies can secure freedom and justice only by building and maintaining a coherent, hierarchical legal order in which positive law is clearly structured yet continuously reshaped by democratic procedures and expanding human rights; legal norms must be analytically distinguished from morality, but the legitimacy and survival of a legal system ultimately depend on its capacity to institutionalize fundamental moral and political values such as liberty, equality, and peace.

Major Works
Theory of the Legal Normextant

Teoria della norma giuridica

Composed: 1950s

Theory of the Legal Orderextant

Teoria dell'ordinamento giuridico

Composed: 1950s–1960

The Future of Democracyextant

Il futuro della democrazia

Composed: late 1970s

The Age of Rightsextant

L'età dei diritti

Composed: 1970s–1980s (essays collected 1990)

Right and Leftextant

Destra e sinistra

Composed: early 1990s

Liberalism and Democracyextant

Liberalismo e democrazia

Composed: 1950s–1980s (essays, collected 1985)

The Problems of War and the Roads to Peaceextant

Il problema della guerra e le vie della pace

Composed: 1960s

Key Quotes
Democracy is not only a set of rules, but also a system of values. The crisis of democracy begins when the values are denied, even if the rules are still formally respected.
Norberto Bobbio, "Il futuro della democrazia" (The Future of Democracy), 1979.

Bobbio stresses that a purely procedural understanding of democracy is insufficient; without a living commitment to underlying values, democratic forms can mask authoritarian practices.

Our age can be called, in a meaningful sense, the age of rights. The history of our time is above all the history of the affirmation of rights.
Norberto Bobbio, "L'età dei diritti" (The Age of Rights), 1990.

He characterizes the twentieth century as marked by the expansion and juridical recognition of human rights, framing rights as the central category for understanding modern politics and law.

The rule of law is the form through which power is subjected to norms; where the rule of law weakens, arbitrary power advances.
Norberto Bobbio, essay in "Liberalismo e democrazia" (Liberalism and Democracy), 1985.

Bobbio underlines the philosophical and political importance of the rule of law as the primary safeguard against authoritarianism and arbitrariness in modern states.

The difference between right and left is not destined to disappear as long as the ideal of equality continues to divide men.
Norberto Bobbio, "Destra e sinistra" (Right and Left), 1994.

He offers a conceptual criterion for distinguishing political ideologies, arguing against the thesis that the right–left divide has become obsolete in contemporary politics.

Law without justice is like a body without a soul, but justice without law remains a mere aspiration.
Norberto Bobbio, "Teoria dell'ordinamento giuridico" (Theory of the Legal Order), circa 1960.

Bobbio encapsulates his dual emphasis on the analytical autonomy of legal systems and the necessity of linking them to substantive ideals of justice.

Key Terms
Norma giuridica (legal norm): In Bobbio’s jurisprudence, a normative statement that prescribes, permits, or forbids behavior, forming the basic unit of a legal system and differing logically from descriptive propositions.
Ordinamento giuridico (legal order): The structured, hierarchical system composed of interconnected legal norms, within which validity, competence, and conflict-resolution are defined and coordinated.
Legal [positivism](/schools/positivism/): The view, refined by Bobbio, that the existence and validity of law depend on social facts and institutional procedures rather than moral content, even though legal systems must be evaluated by moral and political standards.
Rule of law (Stato di diritto): A political–legal condition in which public power is constrained by general, public, and stable norms, ensuring that state actions are legally regulated and [rights](/terms/rights/) are protected against arbitrariness.
Age of rights (età dei diritti): Bobbio’s expression for the contemporary era, characterized by the proliferation, juridification, and internationalization of human rights as central [categories](/terms/categories/) of [politics](/works/politics/) and law.
Liberal democracy: For Bobbio, a form of government that combines democratic procedures (elections, majority rule, representation) with liberal guarantees (rights, separation of powers, constitutional limits).
Right–left distinction: Bobbio’s conceptual framework that identifies the enduring divide between political right and left primarily in their different attitudes toward social and economic [equality](/topics/equality/).
Intellectual Development

Formative Years under Fascism (1909–1945)

Educated in law and philosophy in Turin, Bobbio matured intellectually during Mussolini’s regime. His legal training, contact with liberal and socialist circles, and participation in clandestine anti‑fascist resistance forged his conviction that legal theory cannot be divorced from questions of power, authoritarianism, and democracy.

Analytical Legal Theory and Positivism (1945–1960s)

In the early postwar decades, Bobbio focused on clarifying the structure of legal norms and legal systems. Drawing on Kelsen and analytical philosophy, he produced highly influential work on the nature of norms, the hierarchy of legal orders, and the conceptual separation between law and morality, while already hinting at the need to reconnect legal positivism with democratic values.

From Jurisprudence to Political Theory (1960s–1980s)

Bobbio expanded from technical jurisprudence into broader political theory, addressing the State, sovereignty, democracy, and the balance between liberal and socialist ideals. His essays on pluralism, representation, and majority rule helped redefine democratic theory, and his public interventions made him a key voice in Italian and European political life.

Rights, Democracy, and Peace (1980s–2000s)

In his later decades, Bobbio turned explicitly to human rights, the crisis and prospects of democracy, and international peace and disarmament. He popularized the idea that our era is an “age of rights,” insisted on the centrality of the rule of law for democracy, and argued for strengthening supranational legal institutions to restrain war and protect human dignity.

1. Introduction

Norberto Bobbio (1909–2004) was an Italian jurist and political theorist whose work linked the technical analysis of legal norms with broader questions about democracy, rights, and the rule of law. Writing mainly in the second half of the twentieth century, he became a central figure in European debates on legal positivism, liberal democracy, and the expansion of human rights.

Bobbio is often described as a bridge between analytical philosophy of law—inspired by Hans Kelsen and Anglo‑American jurisprudence—and Continental political theory. He treated law first as a system of norms that can be studied with logical rigor, but he also argued that the survival of democratic societies depends on how these norms institutionalize values such as liberty, equality, and peace.

His influence extended beyond specialist legal theory. Through widely read essays and public interventions, Bobbio shaped discussions on the distinction between right and left, the relation between liberalism and socialism, and the challenges facing democratic institutions in mass societies. He was also a prominent voice in debates on war, disarmament, and supranational legal orders.

The entry that follows examines Bobbio’s life and context, the evolution of his academic career, his main works and themes, and his core contributions to legal and political theory. It also surveys methodological features of his thought, the principal lines of criticism and debate his work has generated, and the ways in which later scholarship has assessed his historical significance.

2. Life and Historical Context

Bobbio’s life unfolded against the backdrop of Italian liberalism, fascism, postwar reconstruction, and the Cold War, all of which left visible traces in his writings on law and politics.

Early life and Fascist period

Born in Turin in 1909 into a cultivated middle‑class family, Bobbio grew up in a city with strong liberal and anti‑clerical traditions. His university studies in law during the 1920s–30s coincided with the consolidation of Mussolini’s regime. During these years, he encountered both liberal and socialist currents, experiences that later informed his efforts to mediate between the two traditions.

Under fascism, Bobbio combined academic work with clandestine anti‑fascist activity. Many interpreters argue that this dual experience—living under an authoritarian legal order while reflecting on the nature of law—helped shape his insistence on the rule of law and constitutional limits on power. His imprisonment in 1935, though relatively brief, is often cited as a formative episode.

Postwar Italy and the Cold War

After 1945, Bobbio’s career took place within the new Italian Republic and its 1948 Constitution. The tensions between a formally democratic legal framework and persistent authoritarian legacies provided a recurring context for his reflections on democracy’s “crisis.”

The broader Cold War climate also influenced his political writings. Positioned between communist and conservative camps, he addressed themes such as pluralism, ideological polarization, and the future of socialism within constitutional democracies. The nuclear age and the arms race, especially from the 1960s onward, offered the historical background for his sustained engagement with peace, disarmament, and international law.

PeriodHistorical ContextRelevance for Bobbio
1909–1945Liberal Italy, rise and dominance of fascismFormation of anti‑authoritarian and legal‑constitutional concerns
1945–1960sRepublican settlement, early Cold WarFocus on rebuilding legal and democratic institutions
1960s–1980sSocial movements, détente, terrorism in ItalyAnalyses of democracy’s limits and violence in mass societies
1980s–2000sEuropean integration, end of Cold WarTurn to human rights, supranational law, and peace

3. Intellectual Development and Academic Career

Bobbio’s intellectual trajectory is often described in phases, each marked by shifts in emphasis rather than abrupt breaks.

Formative legal‑philosophical training

After earning his law degree at the University of Turin in 1934, Bobbio pursued specialization in philosophy of law. Early works addressed legal positivism and the structure of normativity. Mentors and colleagues in Turin’s intellectual milieu—where liberal, socialist, and Catholic thinkers interacted—provided a plural environment in which he cultivated both analytic precision and political sensitivity.

Postwar academic consolidation

In 1948 Bobbio was appointed professor of Philosophy of Law at the University of Turin, a position that gave him a stable institutional base. During the 1950s–60s, he produced systematic studies later collected as Teoria della norma giuridica and Teoria dell’ordinamento giuridico. This period is generally seen as his most “juridical,” centered on conceptual analysis of norms, validity, and the legal order.

PhaseMain Institutional RolesDominant Focus
1930s–mid‑1940sEarly teaching posts; involvement in resistanceLegal positivism, ethics under dictatorship
Late 1940s–1960sChair in Philosophy of Law, TurinSystematic jurisprudence, theory of norms and legal order
1960s–1980sPositions in political science and philosophy; public intellectualTheory of the State, democracy, liberalism/socialism
1980s–2000sEmeritus professor; member of cultural institutionsRights, peace, international order, ideological mapping

Expansion into political theory and public debate

From the 1960s onward, Bobbio increasingly taught and wrote in political science and political philosophy, not only in law faculties. He contributed to major Italian journals and newspapers, becoming a widely recognized commentator on constitutional issues, party politics, and ideological conflicts.

Commentators often emphasize the continuity between his technical legal work and his later political essays: his earlier analyses of norms and legal systems provided tools for examining how democratic rules operate, how rights are institutionalized, and how power is constrained domestically and internationally.

4. Major Works and Central Themes

Bobbio’s corpus is extensive, but several works are widely regarded as central nodes around which his main themes cluster.

Jurisprudence and the structure of law

  • ** Teoria della norma giuridica (Theory of the Legal Norm)**
    Develops a detailed account of legal norms as the basic units of legal systems, distinguishing them from descriptive propositions and classifying types of normative statements.

  • ** Teoria dell’ordinamento giuridico (Theory of the Legal Order)**
    Explores the ordinamento giuridico as a structured system rather than a mere collection of rules, addressing hierarchy, competence, gaps, and conflicts among norms.

Democracy, liberalism, and rights

  • ** Il futuro della democrazia (The Future of Democracy)**
    Examines challenges facing contemporary democracies—bureaucratization, party oligarchies, citizen apathy—and the tension between democratic procedures and substantive values.

  • ** Liberalismo e democrazia (Liberalism and Democracy)**
    Collects essays on the relationship between liberal guarantees (rights, rule of law) and democratic sovereignty, interrogating whether the two are compatible, complementary, or in tension.

  • ** L’età dei diritti (The Age of Rights)**
    Argues that the twentieth century is characterized by the proliferation and juridical recognition of rights, and reflects on the historical genesis, typologies, and institutionalization of rights.

Ideology, equality, and political mapping

  • ** Destra e sinistra (Right and Left)**
    Proposes a conceptual criterion for distinguishing political right and left, centering on differing attitudes toward social and economic equality, and challenges claims about the obsolescence of this divide.

War, peace, and international order

  • ** Il problema della guerra e le vie della pace (The Problems of War and the Roads to Peace)**
    Addresses war as a structural feature of the international system, analyzes justifications of war, and surveys institutional and legal pathways toward disarmament and peace.

Across these works, recurring themes include the rule of law, the relationship between positivism and morality, the institutional conditions of democracy, the expansion of subjective rights, and the search for legal limits on violence at both national and international levels.

Bobbio’s legal theory is often summarized through his analyses of the legal norm, the legal order, and the nature of legal positivism.

In Teoria della norma giuridica, Bobbio conceives the norma giuridica as a prescriptive statement that commands, permits, or forbids behavior. He distinguishes:

ConceptBobbio’s Use
NormPrescriptive statement guiding conduct (e.g., “You must pay taxes”)
PropositionDescriptive statement that can be true or false (e.g., “Taxes are high”)

This distinction underpins his claim that legal science, when describing norms, operates at a level different from moral or sociological evaluation. He analyzes relations among norms—derogation, hierarchy, generality, exceptions—to clarify how complex legal reasoning functions.

In Teoria dell’ordinamento giuridico, Bobbio argues that individual norms gain meaning only within a legal order, a structured set of norms linked by criteria of validity and competence. Key features include:

  • Hierarchy of sources (constitution, statutes, regulations)
  • Unity of the system despite gaps or conflicts
  • Coherence, achieved through interpretive and conflict‑resolution rules

Proponents see this as a major contribution to understanding law as a dynamic, self‑regulating system; critics sometimes suggest that it underestimates informal or customary elements that escape formal hierarchies.

Bobbio is commonly classified as a legal positivist, though commentators debate the precise label. He maintains a conceptual separation between:

  • What law is (a system of valid norms produced by recognized authorities)
  • What law ought to be (a matter for moral and political evaluation)

Supporters argue that this distinction clarifies legal analysis and avoids conflating legality with justice. Critics, including some natural lawyers and critical theorists, contend that Bobbio’s framework may insufficiently account for situations where extreme injustice challenges the very identity of law. Bobbio’s own later writings acknowledge that while validity does not depend on moral content, the legitimacy and stability of legal orders do depend on their capacity to embody widely shared values, especially in democratic regimes.

6. Democracy, Liberalism, and Socialism

Bobbio’s political theory centers on the relationships and tensions among democracy, liberalism, and socialism, treated as distinct but potentially compatible traditions.

Procedural democracy and its limits

In Il futuro della democrazia, Bobbio presents democracy primarily as a set of rules for collective decision‑making: elections, majority rule, representation, and party competition. He emphasizes the importance of these procedures for peaceful conflict resolution. At the same time, he notes that formal procedures can coexist with oligarchic practices, bureaucratic domination, or citizen apathy, leading to what he calls the “crisis of democracy.”

Some commentators credit him with a lucid account of “minimal” democracy; others argue that this focus on procedures underplays participatory and deliberative dimensions.

Liberalism and the rule of law

In Liberalismo e democrazia, Bobbio distinguishes liberalism—centered on individual rights, separation of powers, and limitations on state authority—from democracy, which is about who holds power and how decisions are made. He contends that:

TraditionCore Focus (in Bobbio’s reading)
LiberalismProtection of freedoms and rights; rule‑of‑law constraints
DemocracyPopular sovereignty; majority decision‑making

Supporters of this analysis find it clarifies how “liberal democracy” combines two historically distinct logics. Critics suggest that Bobbio treats liberal rights as largely pre‑political and may understate their democratic origins or contestation.

Socialism and equality

Bobbio interprets socialism chiefly through its commitment to equality, especially socio‑economic equality. He explores whether socialist aims can be pursued within liberal‑democratic institutions rather than through revolutionary breaks. In Destra e sinistra, he identifies attitudes toward equality as the enduring criterion distinguishing right and left, situating socialism on the egalitarian end of this spectrum.

Some Marxist critics argue that this “egalitarian” reading reduces socialism to a moral preference rather than a theory of class and production, while others welcome it as a way to reformulate socialist ideals within constitutional frameworks.

Overall, Bobbio’s writings map out possible combinations and tensions among democratic procedures, liberal rights, and socialist demands for greater equality, without prescribing a single definitive synthesis.

7. Human Rights, Peace, and International Order

In his later work, Bobbio turns explicitly to human rights, the problem of war, and the prospects for a more robust international legal order.

The “age of rights”

In L’età dei diritti, Bobbio characterizes the contemporary era by the proliferation and juridification of rights. He traces historically how new categories of rights—civil, political, social, and collective—have been progressively recognized. He proposes that:

  • Rights emerge historically from concrete conflicts and struggles.
  • Their effectiveness depends on institutional guarantees, not merely declarations.
  • The expansion of rights tends to shift political conflicts into legal arenas.

Some commentators applaud this historically grounded, non‑metaphysical view of rights; others argue that it may underplay cultural and philosophical debates about the foundations of human dignity.

War, peace, and disarmament

In Il problema della guerra e le vie della pace, Bobbio analyzes war as a structural feature of the international system, which lacks a centralized coercive authority. He surveys doctrines such as just war theory, pacifism, and realism, and examines legal instruments like the UN Charter and arms‑control treaties.

He emphasizes:

  • The tension between state sovereignty and supranational legal constraints
  • The role of public opinion and democratic control in decisions about war
  • The importance of gradual, institutional pathways to disarmament

Critics from realist traditions often view his hopes for legal constraints on war as overly optimistic, whereas some pacifists consider his acceptance of incrementalism too accommodating to existing power structures.

Bobbio regards the strengthening of international law and supranational institutions as essential for both rights protection and peace. He discusses possibilities for:

  • Expanding international human rights courts and monitoring bodies
  • Developing forms of limited world constitutionalism
  • Balancing state sovereignty with universal norms

Supporters see this as an early contribution to debates on global governance and cosmopolitan law; skeptics question the feasibility of such structures in a world of unequal power and divergent cultural traditions.

8. Methodology and Style of Argument

Bobbio’s work is marked by a distinctive methodological pluralism and a clear, didactic style that aims to make complex problems accessible without sacrificing rigor.

Analytical clarity and conceptual distinctions

Influenced by Kelsen and analytic jurisprudence, Bobbio frequently employs fine‑grained conceptual distinctions—for example, between norms and propositions, validity and effectiveness, liberalism and democracy, right and left. Proponents argue that this method reduces confusion in polarized debates and clarifies points of disagreement. Critics sometimes contend that his focus on classificatory distinctions can overshadow deeper normative or sociological questions.

Historical and comparative orientation

Alongside conceptual analysis, Bobbio situates doctrines within their historical development and compares different legal and political traditions. In works on rights and democracy, he often reconstructs genealogies of ideas and institutions, using them to explain contemporary configurations. Some scholars praise this as a balanced integration of history and theory; others suggest that his historical sketches are sometimes schematic.

Normative restraint and “moderate” tone

Bobbio typically refrains from sweeping philosophical systems, preferring incremental arguments and explicit recognition of open problems. He often presents multiple positions, evaluates their strengths and weaknesses, and leaves some issues unresolved. This has been seen as:

  • A strength, fostering critical reflection and avoiding dogmatism
  • A limitation, leaving readers without a fully articulated normative framework

Public‑intellectual writing style

His essays and newspaper interventions are written in a clear, non‑technical Italian, relying on examples from contemporary politics to illuminate abstract points. Supporters highlight this as a model of scholarly engagement with public debate. Some academic critics, however, argue that his popular essays sometimes simplify complex theoretical issues or rely on intuitive judgments that are not fully justified within a formal philosophical framework.

9. Reception, Critiques, and Debates

Bobbio’s work has generated extensive commentary in legal theory, political philosophy, and Italian intellectual history.

Reception in jurisprudence

In Italy and parts of Europe and Latin America, his theories of legal norms and legal orders have become standard reference points in the philosophy of law. Many legal scholars credit him with clarifying positivist approaches and integrating them with concerns about democracy and rights.

Some critics, especially from natural law and critical legal studies traditions, argue that his insistence on a conceptual separation between law and morality risks legitimizing unjust legal systems by treating their validity as morally neutral. Others suggest that his focus on formal structures sidelines issues of power, class, gender, or race that shape legal practice.

Debates on democracy and ideology

Bobbio’s reflections on democracy, liberalism, and socialism have sparked debate among political theorists and activists. Marxist and radical scholars have sometimes criticized his interpretation of socialism as too reformist and his understanding of equality as insufficiently tied to material relations of production. Conversely, some liberal commentators question his emphasis on social rights and redistributive equality, seeing it as a potential threat to individual liberty and market mechanisms.

His book Destra e sinistra has been widely discussed in debates over whether the right–left distinction remains meaningful. Supporters find his equality‑based criterion illuminating; critics argue that contemporary politics is structured by other cleavages (e.g., cultural, environmental, or globalist–sovereigntist divides) that his framework does not fully capture.

International influence and limitations

Bobbio’s impact has been particularly strong in Italian‑speaking and Latin American contexts, where many of his works were early translated and taken up in constitutional and democratic transitions. In the Anglo‑American world, reception has been more limited, partly due to translation delays and the dominance of other paradigms in legal and political theory.

Some commentators portray him as a paradigmatic “moderate” thinker whose influence derives from careful synthesis rather than radical innovation; others argue that this moderation masks a more far‑reaching reorientation of how legal positivism and democratic theory can be connected.

10. Legacy and Historical Significance

Assessments of Bobbio’s legacy converge on the view that he played a central role in shaping twentieth‑century debates on law, democracy, and rights, particularly in Italy and Europe.

In legal theory, Bobbio is often cited for consolidating a systematic positivism attentive to both logical structure and political context. Many later jurists build on his distinctions between norm and proposition, legal norm and legal order, and validity and effectiveness. His work is also seen as helping reorient European jurisprudence toward concerns with constitutionalism, human rights, and the rule of law after experiences of dictatorship.

In political theory, he contributed to clearer understandings of liberal democracy, the tension between rights and sovereignty, and the ongoing relevance of the right–left distinction. His analyses have been used in debates on party systems, constitutional reforms, and the interpretation of social rights.

Role in democratic transitions and public culture

In countries undergoing democratization, particularly in Southern Europe and Latin America, Bobbio’s writings on the rule of law, constitutional guarantees, and the dangers of authoritarianism have been read as resources for institutional design and civic education. Scholars note that his accessible style allowed complex legal‑political ideas to circulate widely beyond academic circles.

Long‑term significance and ongoing debates

Some commentators present Bobbio as a key figure in the transition from classical state‑centered jurisprudence to a rights‑ and institution‑centered view of law and politics, anticipating later discussions of global governance and constitutional pluralism. Others argue that his framework remains tied to the nation‑state and may require significant revision in light of globalization, digital transformations, and new forms of inequality.

Despite these debates, Bobbio is widely regarded as a reference point for discussions on the interaction between positive law, democratic procedures, and moral‑political values, and his work continues to be revisited in contemporary scholarship on legal theory, democratic crises, and human rights.

How to Cite This Entry

Use these citation formats to reference this thinkers entry in your academic work. Click the copy button to copy the citation to your clipboard.

APA Style (7th Edition)

Philopedia. (2025). Norberto Bobbio. Philopedia. https://philopedia.com/thinkers/norberto-bobbio/

MLA Style (9th Edition)

"Norberto Bobbio." Philopedia, 2025, https://philopedia.com/thinkers/norberto-bobbio/.

Chicago Style (17th Edition)

Philopedia. "Norberto Bobbio." Philopedia. Accessed December 11, 2025. https://philopedia.com/thinkers/norberto-bobbio/.

BibTeX
@online{philopedia_norberto_bobbio,
  title = {Norberto Bobbio},
  author = {Philopedia},
  year = {2025},
  url = {https://philopedia.com/thinkers/norberto-bobbio/},
  urldate = {December 11, 2025}
}

Note: This entry was last updated on 2025-12-10. For the most current version, always check the online entry.